JIM CHALMERS MP
SHADOW TREASURER
MEMBER FOR RANKIN
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING
MONDAY, 26 JULY 2021
SUBJECTS: NSW Lockdown and JobKeeper; Anti-lockdown rallies and Scott Morrison’s failure to condemn George Christensen; Legislated income tax cuts; negative gearing; Scott Morrison’s failures on vaccine and quarantine; Labor’s policy agenda.
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Jim Chalmers is the Shadow Treasurer and my guest this afternoon. Jim Chalmers, welcome.
JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER: Hi Patricia.
KARVELAS: There are three COVID-19 cases causing renewed concern in Queensland including one who fled Sydney and a flight attendant. How alarmed are you by yet more examples of people flouting the rules?
CHALMERS: It's terribly alarming Patricia. We want to make sure that people are doing the right thing. I think overwhelmingly Australians are doing the right thing by each other to limit the spread of the virus, but you will always have rare cases of people doing the wrong thing or you might have those idiots like we saw on the weekend with that demonstration. On the whole people are doing the right thing by each other and that's a good thing.
KARVELAS: The Prime Minister has described the anti-lockdown protesters, particularly in Sydney on Saturday as selfish and self-defeating, but says those in areas not subject to lockdown have the right to protest. What do you think?
CHALMERS: I think the Prime Minister should have taken the opportunity to condemn his own colleague George Christensen, who pushes around all of these lies on social media and attends these rallies, which are incredibly damaging. I think that was yet another failure of leadership from Scott Morrison. After all of the rhetoric and all of the weasel words and he can't even condemn his own colleague, who's part of the problem here. So ideally, he would have done that.
KARVELAS: Okay, so you think he's complicit in some way because he hasn't denounced George Christensen?
CHALMERS: I think Australians who are doing the right thing by each other have got a right to expect that their Prime Minister if he had even an ounce of integrity or an ounce of leadership would have condemned his own colleague for being behind these rallies, attending these rallies and pushing lies around on social media. It compromises the good work that Australians on the main are doing for each other in really difficult times.
KARVELAS: Labor has today criticised the New South Wales Government for not entering lockdown sooner. Do you believe that decision may have been made sooner if a JobKeeper type wage subsidy was in place?
CHALMERS: You'd have to ask the New South Wales Government what their motivations were. I think it's pretty clear that any objective observer thinks that parts of New South Wales should have shut down sooner, and that might have prevented this lockdown from being longer. I think that's pretty clear. Whether it's in Sydney, whether it's Victoria, South Australia or elsewhere, we're going to have these lockdowns for as long as Scott Morrison continues to make a mess of vaccines and quarantine and now JobKeeper. It's just common sense to everyone in Australia except for the Morrison Government that we need JobKeeper brought back or something like it, which maintains the link between employer and employee, gives an appropriate level of support so that people can actually support themselves through a difficult time, but ditches all of the rorts and all of the exclusions which bedevilled the first version. That's common sense. I think the government will end up there in one way or another. They're dragging their feet because they don't want to be humiliated into saying that they were wrong to cut it in the first place, which is obvious to everyone else. We call on them to bring back JobKeeper or something like it. We make the same points that the New South Wales Liberal Government, New South Wales Labor opposition, the business community, the union movement and most Australians who look at this with common sense and just think, why can't we have JobKeeper back given we've got these serious lockdowns, which are bleeding the economy $300 million a day and $2 billion a week.
KARVELAS: Do you believe that the movement we’re still seeing in Sydney, particularly the numbers of people infectious while still in the community is because the payment is inadequate? Do you think a JobKeeper style payment would make people stay put? Would it actually help in fighting the virus?
CHALMERS: I think so. Job Keeper is important because it maintains that link between employer and employee. It makes people less likely to take risks. It makes people less likely to make that horrible decision between providing for their loved ones, or doing the right thing by their co-workers. These are really important elements. We're going to have these lockdowns for as long as the government continues to make a mess of vaccines and quarantine. The least they could do is come to the table with JobKeeper or something like it. That's obvious to everybody else. I think they'll end up there at some point but they don't want to admit that it was a horribly stupid decision in the first place to cut JobKeeper when we warned them that this would be the case. They cut the JobKeeper pandemic support before the pandemic ended and Australians are paying the price for that now.
KARVELAS: The government says the current COVID income support payments get to individuals faster in fact, then JobKeeper did. Is the additional security of maintaining contact between employee and employer worth the lag in payments?
CHALMERS: There doesn't need to be a lag in payments Patricia. This is a programme which was in place through much of 2020. We said that there were some issues with the implementation obviously, there's been rorting of it. Businesses that didn't need it got it while businesses that do need it, small businesses and workers have missed out. Obviously, there have been some issues there but on the whole, we had a programme that was working, keeping people in work, it should have been left there so that it can be dialled up or dialled down when we have outbreaks like this. We told the government in March that it was premature to cut JobKeeper, we've been proven 100 per cent right. 56,000 people lost their job then and all of these people are crying out for JobKeeper support now. Why don't we listen, Patricia, to the small businesses of Western Sydney, who've been left in the lurch by this Prime Minister? Why don't we listen to the workers around Australia who desperately need JobKeeper and get it in place as soon as possible?
KARVELAS: Labor has decided to back stage three tax cuts going into the next election despite some members opposing them. This is really about high-income earners getting a tax cut. Why are you making this decision now?
CHALMERS: It's true Patricia that for more than 9 million Australians who earn over $45,000 a year, they will get the same legislated tax cut under Scott Morrison as they will get under us. We’re providing that certainty and that clarity today. We've spent much of the last two years amongst all of the other tasks that we've done in economic policy, consulting and listening. We said all along that we will take our time to come to a view but that we'd announced that position well in advance of the election, so that people can factor that in when they go to the polling booth, whether it's at the end of this year or the beginning of next year and that's what we did today.
KARVELAS: But this means extremely high-income earners will get a tax cut. When this pandemic began, Labor told us that you believe this was an opportunity to deal with inequality. But you've squibbed it.
CHALMERS: Obviously I don't accept that for one second Patricia -
KARVELAS: Well how does this deal with inequality? You're giving a tax cut to the most high-income Australians, you've backed the tax cut in right? You said you wanted to look at everything and make it more equitable, and yet, you failed to take that opportunity.
CHALMERS: But this is not the only opportunity to do that, Patricia -
KARVELAS: But it was an opportunity, it was an opportunity to do it. Because you are going to let high income earners have more money in their pockets at a time when many Australians are suffering.
CHALMERS: I'll just finish my answer from the first question, Patricia. There's more than one way to make Australia more fair and more sustainable. Whether it's making sure that multinational corporations pay their fair share. Making sure that people can return to work, getting access and affordability in the childcare system. Making sure that people on low and modest incomes can access cleaner and cheaper energy. Making sure that we build more social housing in this community. There are a whole range of ways that we can make Australia fairer, more sustainable, and more inclusive. Whether it's during this pandemic, by giving people job support, and other forms of support or making sure in the recovery there are more opportunities for more people.
KARVELAS: Labor always said they supported, which you said you supported, which is a progressive tax system. That's one of the most obvious ways to create economic equality and now you've backed in the stage three tax cuts that you have been critical of. Why have you done it when you know, or you've argued previously, that it's not an equal way to go forward with taxation reform?
CHALMERS: We've said for two years that we'll come to a concluded view close to the election -
KARVELAS: You've been critical of the stage three tax cuts.
CHALMERS: Patricia, when we were asked about the three stages of the tax cuts, two years ago, we pointed out that we thought that stages one and two were better targeted but we said that we come to a view on the totality of the package. They were legislated some two years ago, I'll tell you what this election will be about Patricia, it won't be about differences on these already legislated tax cuts. It'll be about whether we can have a stronger, more sustainable, more inclusive society and economy after COVID than before. Whether we can deal with eight years of wage stagnation and flatlining living standards that we've seen under the Liberals. Whether we can do something meaningful about childcare, climate change, and reconstructing the advanced manufacturing sector. Whether we can build social housing, there are so many important differences between Labor and the government.
KARVELAS: All right, fair enough. You say stage one and two was better targeted. Why would you back in a taxation change that happens in the future that you know is not well targeted?
CHALMERS: Because we think the biggest priority in economic policy, Patricia, is a combination of doing the right thing by people to get them through this pandemic. We've seen horrible economic mismanagement, which is bleeding the economy right now during this pandemic. That's the nation's focus and in the recovery, we think that there are important ways to have cleaner and cheaper energy, to teach and train people for technological change, to turn our ideas into jobs, to do something about all of these issues, which are really important have been left in the too hard basket for too long. That's what the economic contest at this election will be about.
KARVELAS: But you don't think its good policy? I just want to get this clear. Do you think the stage three tax cuts a good economic policy?
CHALMERS: Yes, I think it's the right decision -
KARVELAS: Why? How is it good economic policy?
CHALMERS: If you let me finish Patricia it will give people that certainty and that clarity around the tax scales. We made that announcement today but also, because I think as I've said a couple of times now, we want the focus in the economy, in economic policy and in the lead up to this election and beyond to be how do we manage this pandemic more effectively, in terms of economic management, but also how do we manage the economy so that we can make it stronger after COVID than it was before? This is only one aspect. This is only one sliver of economic policy and I will happily have an election contest on all of these other issues that I've talked about. But we thought it was important that we give people certainty and clarity today, and that's what we've done.
KARVELAS: You're also scared of the campaign, aren't you? That's what it's about is scared of the campaign on taxes that the Liberals might run?
CHALMERS: No, Patricia, we're happy to have a conversation about tax when it comes to multinationals, for example, we're happy to have that debate. But we want the economic debate focused on the things that the Australian people are focused on. The fact that they can't get secure work. They can't get a pay rise. They can't access affordable childcare. These are all the highest most pressing priorities that people have in the community. That's our focus as well and we want to have an economic debate in this election about those issues and about the mismanagement of the pandemic, which is costing the economy dearly, costing small business and workers dearly, and about how we recover in a more inclusive and more sustainable way so the economy can be stronger than it has been the last eight years. We welcome that conversation, that debate and that contest.
KARVELAS: Labor has also announced it will maintain current negative gearing and capital gains tax regimes. That's quite a shift from the policy taken to the 2019 election, why? Why have you made that call, given you argued, and you did actually, to me many times, as you know, that the system the negative gearing system was unfair? That it was unfair to people who wanted to get into the market that has allowed investors to buy lots of homes and negatively gear them? Why is it suddenly fair, why are you backing this system?
CHALMERS: There's a range of reasons there, Patricia. First of all, we listened and we learned from the last election. We said that we wouldn't take an identical set of policies to the next election that we took to the last election. People want us to look forward rather than try and read prosecute fights from the past. We also recognise, as do the serious economists, that what's driving house prices at the moment is a range of factors, including extremely low interest rates, and a lack of supply. Thirdly, we've said that our priority when it comes to housing policies, building affordable housing, we've got that affordable housing Future Fund, which is our first priority in housing. We'll have other things to say about housing policy between now and the next election. There are a range of reasons we've taken this decision today. Whether it's this one or the one on the income tax cuts, they're not decisions we take lightly. We don't take them on the run. We've spent a couple of years listening and consulting. We've come to this view today and we've announced it so that Australians can have that certainty and clarity that I keep returning to.
KARVELAS: I mean, I know I've been a little, you know, interrupty with you but I think it's important because you know why, overwhelmingly, I've seen people who are traditionally your supporters, probably the left rank and file voters who are pretty disappointed that you've taken these decisions. That's why use the word squibbed it, they think that you have really put the white flag up on these issues. What is your answer to those voters who are really thinking, you know, what does Labor stand for now?
CHALMERS: I recognise that there are a range of views in the community about these issues and some of them, you know, strongly held and well-motivated. I don't fear a contest of ideas on these sorts of issues. I say to all of those people, that we don't take these decisions lightly. We have to balance a whole range of considerations. We will always be more progressive, better for people on low, fixed and middle incomes than the Morrison Government. That's our commitment and you see that in the policies that we've announced already, and there'll be more of the same as we get between now and the election. When we get to the election, we will present a policy agenda to the Australian people which is forward looking and which is far more progressive than what the Morrison government will be offering.
KARVELAS: Jim Chalmers thanks for coming on the show.
CHALMERS: Thanks Patricia.
ENDS
