JIM CHALMERS MP
SHADOW TREASURER
MEMBER FOR RANKIN
 

 
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC BRISBANE DRIVE
MONDAY, 20 DECEMBER 2021

SUBJECTS: Morrison Government the second highest taxing government in the last 30 years; Decade of stagnant wages and job insecurity under the LNP; $1 trillion of Liberal debt and not enough to show for it; Migration and the economy; Mid-year Budget update silent on the skyrocketing costs of living; Labor’s positive policies to grow the economy the right way; The biggest risk to the economy is another bungled vaccine rollout; Bringing Australians together and not dividing them; Summer book recommendations.     
 

STEVE AUSTIN, HOST: Jim Chalmers is the Shadow Treasurer and federal Labor Member for Rankin, the electorate here in Queensland. Jim Chalmers, good afternoon to you.

JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER: Good afternoon to you, Steve.

AUSTIN: Jim Chalmers, where does Labor say the Coalition sits in terms of taxation and spending, in Australia's political history?

CHALMERS: It doesn't matter what we say about it Steve, the facts say that the two highest taxing governments of the last 30 years have both been Liberal governments, John Howard's and the current one. That's what their own Budget papers say, so I don't know what Simon Birmingham's on about to be to be honest with you, Steve. You'd think the Finance Minister of this country would know that very basic fact. If he doesn't he should read Alan Kohler. I know a lot of your listeners read, and watch, and listen to Alan Kohler. He's written a piece today saying that the higher taxing governments are Liberal governments. Obviously, when you've got this trillion dollars of debt that was revealed in the mid-year Budget update last Thursday that you referred to, then clearly there's a lot of spending going on as well. So that clip that you just played from Simon Birmingham was complete and utter rubbish from beginning to end.

AUSTIN: What are the main financial issues facing Australia going into next year, 2022? What are the main financial issues that you think we face going into next year, Jim Chalmers?

CHALMERS: I think the main one that matters most to your listeners Steve, is this almost decade now of really stagnant wages because that flows through into so many important parts of the economy. We've got those stagnant wages not because of the pandemic necessarily, but because for a long time now work is getting less secure. You and I have spoken about that on a few occasions in the past. And because we've got that job insecurity, that underemployment, that insecure work, then that is eating away at people's wages. That makes it harder for them to meet the skyrocketing costs of living, and it means less money circulating in the small businesses and local economies of the country. I think that's probably the main one but it's not the only one. We've had an issue with investment for a while, we've got a big issue with productivity, we've got that trillion dollars of debt and not enough to show for it, we've got deficits as far as the eye can see. All of these issues, but I think the main one is wages.

AUSTIN: The MYEFO forecasts a doubling of migrant labour coming into Australia. Does Labor support that?

CHALMERS: What we've said about that Steve, is that obviously migration plays an important part in the economy, nobody’s disputing that, but it shouldn't be an excuse not to train people for the opportunities that arise. We've got this bizarre situation where we've got 1.7 million Australians who either can't find a job or can't find enough hours, at the same time as we've got these skill shortages and labour shortages, which doesn't make a lot of sense. What we've said, is of course there will be migration come back when the international borders reopen. Migration has been an important part of our economy for some time, continues to be now, very important to the recovery, but not an excuse not to do that training, which is necessary to make sure that Australians can grab the opportunities of a recovering economy as well.

AUSTIN: I'm going to continue on the question on this because I want to get clarity around this. So, the mid-year economic fiscal outlook - MYEFO - forecasts a doubling of migrants coming into Australia. Now, that will bring skills but it will also take pressure off wages going up. In other words, immigrant labour - or labour coming in - tends to make it easier for employers, and that means that wages do not go up. Now Labor says you want wages to increase, but bringing these migrants in will actually prevent or slow that from happening?

CHALMERS: I don't think it's quite that simple. I understand your point, but I don't think it's quite that simple. It depends what rates people are being paid when they come in, whether or not they're being exploited. It depends on the skills mix, whether they're coming in in areas of legitimate skill shortages or not. All those sorts of complexities are important as well, but I understand the point that you're making. The point I'd make, is that we know that migration makes a net contribution to the economy. We know that we've got skill shortages. Our view is we need a sensible mix between migration when it comes to the labour market and training people for opportunities.

Our priority - and Simon Birmingham was even kind enough to mention this in the clip that you played a moment ago - is to say where there are skills shortages, people should have free TAFE so we can fill those shortages as soon as possible. That's an important part of the positive policies that we put forward.

AUSTIN: You'd know at the moment there's huge competition for labour, particularly skilled labour in Australia. Philip Lowe says he wants wages to go up, like you have, but isn't the fact that we haven't had immigration coming in for the period of the pandemic, that's given clear evidence that bringing skilled labour in from overseas does make it difficult for wages to increase?

CHALMERS: Again Steve, I don't think it's quite that simple. I know the commentary that you're referring to with Phil Lowe and I think Phil can speak for himself, but I don't think he was making things that simple either. It really depends where the migrants are going, what skills areas, the mix of labour that's coming in. The point that we're making is the highest priority here in all of these considerations should be to train people. There are opportunities being generated in there in the economy as it recovers. Our job as an alternative national government, is to make sure that more Australians can grab those opportunities at the same time as we recognise that migration will always be an important part of the economy.

AUSTIN: My guest is Jim Chalmers. Mr Chalmers is the Shadow Treasurer for federal Labor and he also holds the seat of Rankin in Queensland here. This is ABC Radio Brisbane - and Queensland, right across the state - lovely to have you along this afternoon. Not far away, about 11 minutes away, from the five o'clock news. Jim Chalmers, we're heading into Christmas time, but in the New Year what issues do you think Australia will be facing overall? Other than financial issues, is there anything that's on your radar that you think we're going to have to tackle at next year?

CHALMERS: In the most pressing sense, I'm worried about this booster program. A lot of our ability to succeed or otherwise in the first part of next year will be determined by whether or not we can get the booster program going. My fear is that we, when I saw we I mean I don't think that the federal government learned from the mistakes earlier this year when it came to the vaccines. We are way behind where we should be on boosters. There are 70 countries that measure their progress on getting boosters into people's arms and we're currently at 65th on that list of 70 countries. I think that's going to be the big near-term priority, I think the biggest risk to the economy, and to our society frankly, is whether or not we can get those boosters rolling.

Beyond that, obviously there are some huge challenges. Our region is more uncertain. Clearly, a more assertive China. Clearly, the post-pandemic world is uncertain. So, we'll have to navigate that. Clearly, there are aspects of our economic recovery, which I talked about before, which are going to be a big part of the story. Sitting over the top of all of that, is whether or not we can actually bring the country together in ways that Australians were able to during the pandemic, to solve some of these other challenges - whether it's budget sustainability, or getting the labour market right, or dealing with the challenges in our region - we're going to need much more unity and much more leadership and direction than is currently being provided.

AUSTIN: Federal election either March or May next year - probably May - who knows. I assume that's quite a draining time, obviously, for the people involved. People like you and your Labor team. I assume you are getting a break for a period of time over the Christmas / New Year period?

CHALMERS: A very small one Steve, we go to Adelaide with the in-laws for a week or so. Like anyone involved in federal politics this year, I think the break will be fleeting because as you rightly say, whether it's March or May the election will be on us before we know it. So a little break, a little breather, and then back into the fray.

AUSTIN: What book or books do you intend on reading over the Christmas break?

CHALMERS: I've got a couple of really good histories. I’ve got this good one called Lincoln's Mentors, which is basically about how Lincoln learnt to lead from different figures around him. He had all those disappointments early in his career and he came roaring back and a lot of people focus on all the reading that he did to kind of self-educate himself, but this book's about the people that were influential in his life. I'm looking forward to that. And there's another book about Lafayette, who a lot of your listeners would be familiar with from the musical Hamilton. There's a great book called Hero Of Two Worlds, which I'm looking forward to getting into. He was a remarkable historical figure, so I'm looking forward to that.

It'll be a big ask to be as good as the main book I read last summer, this incredible one that I think you'd like Steve, called The Moth and The Mountain. It's about this explorer - he was a bit mad - and he decided when everyone was trying to climb Everest for the first time, that he was going to teach himself to fly a plane, crash-land it on the side of Everest, and get to the top before anybody else. A guy called Maurice Wilson.

(LAUGHTER)

CHALMERS: I'll get you a copy Steve, it's an absolute beauty. It's the best thing I've read for ages, by a guy called Ed Caesar. [Wilson’s] a World War One veteran and he flew this little rickety plane. He was crazy but he was just extraordinarily ambitious, and at every turn people told him not to do it and he did it anyway. It's a fascinating story. I wasn't even aware of it before I read the book, but I'm so pleased I did.

AUSTIN: I hope you have a chance to read, and actually have a genuine psychological break over Christmas. Thank you very much for coming on ABC Radio Brisbane normally, today Queensland, over this year. I know it's a bit of a demand on your time but at least it shows your commitment to sort of talking about Labor's ideas for the electorate, and what no matter which way they vote, at least to get a handle on where you are. Jim Chalmers, Happy Christmas to you and your team. And we'll speak to you again at some point in the New Year.

CHALMERS: Steve, I really enjoy talking to you on Monday afternoons. It's a proper conversation rather than talking points at twenty paces. I'm so grateful for the opportunity. Merry Christmas to you, and to your outstanding team of producers there, and to all your listeners.

ENDS