JIM CHALMERS MP
SHADOW TREASURER
MEMBER FOR RANKIN
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC MELBOURNE DRIVE
WEDNESDAY, 1 DECEMBER 2021
SUBJECTS: National Accounts; House Prices; Fuel Emissions Standards; Jenkins Report.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN, HOST: To talk about these and other matters, Jim Chalmers joins us he's the Shadow Treasurer. So he's Anthony Albanese's Shadow Treasurer and he is the Labor MP for the seat of Rankin in Queensland. Jim Chalmers, good afternoon.
JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER: Good afternoon Raf.
EPSTEIN: On economic matters. It's a terrible number 1.9 per cent for the economy to shrink, but we're still growing. So isn't that just the price of the lockdown?
CHALMERS: We weren't still growing in the September quarter. I think the best way for your listeners to understand how bad this number was, is it's the third biggest downturn in the economy since these national accounts were first kept a long time ago. If you line it up against all of the other outcomes from the other 27 countries in the OECD for which we have a September number ours is actually the worst. So our economy was the worst performing economy in the OECD in the September quarter. That's very troubling. We want the economy to recover. This is the period leading up to the end of September so we had those lockdowns in there but the lockdowns were made necessary by some big mistakes that were made by the federal government around vaccines and quarantine. So today's figures really paint a picture of the costs and consequences of those mistakes.
EPSTEIN: Well, it's the cost of the lockdown, isn't it? I mean, you have accused the government of a lot of things and that's fine if you want to, but the real cause of the number were decisions taken in Sydney and Melbourne, backed by the three biggest governments in the nation.
CHALMERS: The point I'm making Raf is those lockdowns were made necessary by the fact that the rollout of the vaccines wasn't where we needed it to be and there was no purpose built quarantine. A lot of the issues that caused these lockdowns were related to those two things and their federal government responsibilities. The point that I’m making for your listeners is if the government wants to take credit for the economy as it recovers, they've got to take responsibility for the third biggest downturn in the history of the national accounts.
EPSTEIN: You made that point that we were the worst figure for the quarter out of all of the other comparable economies. But it's pretty clear that by the end of the year, we're going to have one of the best growth numbers compared to those economies again, will you give the government credit?
CHALMERS: If the government wants credit for that they’ve got to take responsibility for the downturn. That's the point that I'm making. Yes, the economy will recover. One of the reasons for that is when you have a diabolical quarter, like we've just seen today, then the next quarters number is relative to that. So the worse the downturn, the bigger the expected bounce back in the following quarter. So that'll be part of it. But just so I'm clear Raf we want the economy to recover really strongly. The size of the recovery matters, but also, the type of recovery matters. If you think about a lot of your listeners are dealing with skyrocketing petrol prices, and higher and higher rents, and their real wages are going backwards. So as the economy recovers, we've got to remember, it's not just about numbers on a page. It's about how people are actually faring and people even in a recovering economy are going backwards.
EPSTEIN: I do want to come to what you might do. I just want to update people we've just heard by the way that the trams in the CBD have just resumed. Jim Chalmers is the Shadow Treasurer. Jim Chalmers the number one structural inequality in this country looks like being house prices. I think I've got this right. Nationally, they're up 22 per cent. They're up 16 per cent in Victoria. If you win the next election in March or May next year, what's the significant thing you reckon you're actually able to do to stop house prices charging up that hill?
CHALMERS: This is a big, long standing problem. It's turbocharged right now. But it's a big issue. What we need to do as a Labor opposition is work out what our first priority is. We recognising that there's not one kind of switch you can flick which fixes this problem for people. But we’ve said our priority is social housing. We want to build via our Housing Future Fund, tens of thousands of social housing units, we think that's the best place -
EPSTEIN: Not that that is insignificant, it is. But is that going to help house prices?
CHALMERS: It's building more houses. One of the issues is the availability of housing. We think when you've got constraints in the budget, we would inherit a trillion dollars’ worth of debt if elected, so you've got to make sure that you're being responsible with your spending. We think in the housing market the first place to start is social housing. But that's not a failure to recognise that there are a whole range of other issues out there as well. In recent times, the regulators have done what I think is the right thing by trying to make sure that borrowing standards are appropriate. There have been times -
EPSTEIN: That is a small tweak that maybe works.
CHALMERS: Yes but in previous times when we've had these big increases in house prices there has been a meaningful difference made by the regulators. So let's see how that works as well. We're also working on other housing policies. We've said for some time now that we'll have more to say about the housing market between now and the election.
EPSTEIN: Negative gearing and capital gains tax that's off the off the drawing board. So is that a concession that you won't be doing anything significant on house prices?
CHALMERS: You're right that we're not going down that path. We're not doing negative gearing and capital gains, we’ve made that clear. That's not the only lever in the housing market that matters. There's the regulators, there's social housing and we're working on some other options as well.
EPSTEIN: Tax is the big one. If you don't change the way people invest, you can't really impact market can you?
CHALMERS: It's not the only way you can impact the market. We've made it really clear we're not going down that path. We all know the history of that policy.
EPSTEIN: Sure, sure. I'm not asking you to do that I guess I don't think people really believe you can do anything on house prices?
CHALMERS: I think they believe that because they understand that there's not one thing that you can do. So as I've said our priority is social housing, the regulators are doing their thing and there might be other things we can do but it won't be tax.
EPSTEIN: I will come to the significant issue of the day. I don't want to downplay the Sex Discrimination Commissioner's report but I did want to ask you, there are reports that Labor will not be pushing to change the fuel standards for new Australian vehicles. It's clear that changing the fuel standards makes a big difference both to our emissions and to the attractiveness of electric vehicles. The report is that you're going to leave fuel standards where they are. Why have you run up the white flag on that one?
CHALMERS: I would ask yourself Raf and also your listeners to judge our plan when we announce it and not on the basis of one report or another.
EPSTEIN: Do fuel standards make a difference? Do you think that's a big lever you can pull?
CHALMERS: It's not the only lever. I guess what I'm encouraging people to do is to look at what we announce. It will be very comprehensive what we announce. There'll be a number of elements to it. We said we'll do that in the coming weeks. We said it will be a comprehensive plan and not a pamphlet like the government has and we mean that. We want to be ambitious about cleaner and cheaper energy and all the jobs and investment opportunities that flow from that. There's a report about one element of this kind of policy, but there are other elements too.
EPSTEIN: I could never get a significant answer from Tim Wilson, who is the Assistant Emissions Minister on where the charging stations were going to be. So I just want to see if I can get a significant answer from you. Similar issue. If you don't change the fuel standards, we are going to keep on being a dumping ground for the most polluting vehicles. Isn't that the truth?
CHALMERS: I don't know that that's the case Raf. I don't necessarily see it that way. The work that I will contribute to is our Shadow Cabinet process led by Anthony Albanese and Chris Bowen is to make sure we've got a comprehensive plan. It's not for me to sort of announce what's in and what's out of that plan. If your question is about whether cleaner fuels emit less than obviously that's the case but that's not the only lever that you can pull if you're serious about getting emissions down and getting our energy costs down. We are serious about that and we will have a comprehensive plan for that.
EPSTEIN: Is it frustrating being an ambitious person and having to pursue a small target strategy?
CHALMERS: I don't accept that we are Raf. I genuinely don't. If you look at the policies, we've got out there about the National Reconstruction Fund, Rewiring the Nation so we can get cleaner and cheaper energy more efficiently transmitted, social housing, childcare and skills. There's a whole range of policies already out there and much more to come. I think when people see what we announce in the coming weeks on climate change, they will understand that we're serious about that and we're ambitious about it
EPSTEIN: If I can switch attention we'll get the news headlines in a moment. But this is significant. I just wonder Jim Chalmers and look it's not a criticism. I'm trying to make these nonpartisan questions. If a staffer either in your office or from another office, came to you tonight, and said harassment or something worse happened to me. Without looking at a manual. Would you know what to do? Would you know how to direct that person to both support and the right place to complain? Like do you understand those processes right now?
CHALMERS: Yes. That's because I think in the last few months in particular, and including in the really important work handed down by Kate Jenkins, those arrangements have been cleared up and tightened up so that we do have a mechanism in our party to direct those issues when they're raised and that's appropriate.
EPSTEIN: Do you think you can have a situation where senators and MPs still hire and fire their staff, but you separate out the human resources function? That clearly hasn't happened. Do you think you can provide proper human resources and still have MPs hiring and firing their staff?
CHALMERS: Yes I think so. But what we've said about the 28 recommendations is that we will work closely with our staff via our relevant shadow ministers to make sure that we can implement the recommendations the right way. So that part of the conversation is ongoing. But hopefully when you when you look at the fact that Kate Jenkins has identified that as a substantial issue here, and she's asking for us to respond to that, we take that seriously, we want to do that in conjunction with our staff.
EPSTEIN: So if the staff came to you tonight, where would you send them if they had a complaint? Where would you send them for support first of all? What would you do and where would they go?
CHALMERS: There's two avenues. There's a party avenue, and there's a central avenue. Both of those have been clarified in recent times, and so I would, find those numbers and those people and I'd direct them there.
EPSTEIN: And is that complaint, as well as support? Is that a place to complain? Or is it a place to get support?
CHALMERS: There are both options, both avenues.
EPSTEIN: The Labor Party itself provides a complaint process as well as a support service?
CHALMERS: Yes.
EPSTEIN: And the parliament supplies both as well?
CHALMERS: Correct.
EPSTEIN: And you reckon you'd know how to get someone in touch with those things?
CHALMERS: Yes. I would, I would look up the appropriate avenues, but I know that they exist. I know that in recent times, in both cases, there have been proposals put forward centrally, but there's also an existing process in our Labor Party.
EPSTEIN: Okay, I appreciate your time today. Thank you.
CHALMERS: Thanks Raf.
ENDS
