E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RADIO NATIONAL DRIVE
WEDNESDAY, 8 APRIL 2020
SUBJECTS: Impact of Coronavirus on the economy; JobKeeper legislation; Labor’s constructive approach; Parliamentary oversight of Coronavirus response.
ZOE DANIEL, ABC RADIO NATIONAL DRIVE: Jim Chalmers is the Shadow Treasurer. Thanks for joining us.
JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER: Thank you Zoe.
DANIEL: Are we at a political turning point here? Do you think this collaborative approach could stick?
CHALMERS: At times like these Zoe the public has higher expectations of their Parliament, that we will work as hard as we can to work together to solve or address some of these really enormous challenges that are coming at us on the health front and also in the economy. I think you gave your listeners a good sense of what a big day it was in the Parliament with those introductory remarks from the Prime Minister and from Anthony Albanese. It was a really important day. The House of Representatives voted unanimously to provide support to millions of workers along the lines of what Labor has been calling for with these wage subsidies.
DANIEL: The Government agreed to establish a committee chaired by Labor to review the response to the outbreak. How do you see that working and do you think that process of bipartisanship will continue through that process?
CHALMERS: A couple of things about that Zoe. I hope that that spirit continues because when you are committing these enormous sums of money, $130 billion committed by the Parliament in just one day, today, then there is a premium on making sure that that money is spent responsibly and carefully, that it is spent in the right way for the right reasons, that it finds its way into the right places of the economy. I think that committee chaired by our Shadow Finance spokeswoman Katy Gallagher will have the opportunity to do that. On the broader point about bipartisanship, I think it is really important that we find a way to work together. Under Anthony's leadership we've gone out of our way to be as responsible, constructive and supportive as we can. But that also means speaking up when we think that legislation can be improved. We did that as well today. These are really welcome steps that are being taken by the Parliament but there are some things that could be done better. We've highlighted those as well and we've tried to move amendments, for example, to include more casuals in the scheme, to do something for disability workers, casual teachers and a whole range of other kinds of workers. I think that's important too, because being constructive as an Opposition does not mean just keeping quiet about things that matter.
DANIEL: Yes, well Anthony Albanese's said that he wants to be seen as the Labor Leader, rather than as the Opposition Leader, but as you say checks and balances need to be there. On the amendments that you moved, one was as you say for casuals who have been with their employer for less than 12 months and won't be covered by the JobKeeper payment. It seemed to be implied that there might still be some room to move on that. Do you think there is?
CHALMERS: Not in the legislation today Zoe, but there's a really important point that I don't think is that well understood yet. One of the things we've seen in the last little while is that the Government is not that keen to bring the Parliament back. What they've done in this legislation is they've given the Treasurer, Josh Frydenberg, the ability to expand the scheme to some of these groups at some future point, literally just with the stroke of a pen. So if you think about those casuals you just mentioned, local government workers, temporary workers who are here on visas and can't go home, disability workers, arts and entertainment workers, workers employed by charities that don't meet the various tests: the Treasurer actually has the ability to include them in the scheme. What I'd say to your listeners is, for all of those people who've been contacting us for all the right reasons to say, look there are gaps in this JobKeeper payment, my advice to them is to all keep the pressure up together. The only thing standing between support and wage subsidies for more Australians, especially casual workers, is Josh Frydenberg's signature. There still is the capacity to make that happen and so we should keep campaigning for that outcome.
DANIEL: No pressure on Josh Frydenberg. He has a hard job right now. Just on that, I mean, if he has all of that power, if these measures need to be extended beyond the six months, for example, is that something that you would support?
CHALMERS: It's really important, Zoe, to recognise that we don't know where the economy will be in six months' time. We haven't been provided in a public way a sense from the Government of how they expect things to unfold. Let's not commit to some arbitrary deadline where all of this support is just automatically turned off. We don't know yet but that could be quite damaging if the economy is still weak. The Government should have the capacity to withdraw all of these various forms of support in an intelligent and careful way, rather than just pretending that they know now that everything will be fine in six months' time and they can turn the tap off for all of these types of assistance.
DANIEL: I mean, we talk about accountability and without being cute about it, do you have concerns about having difficulty reining in the Government's control and powers that it's now taken on once the crisis is over?
CHALMERS: Some of these are genuinely temporary powers. For example, there's some in the industrial relations space and some that we've been talking about when it comes to the Treasurer's powers. Those are typically temporary powers so that's at least been partially addressed. We've been very supportive of this assistance. It's a lot of money. We need to scrutinise it with the committee and in other ways. We need to be very careful about how it's spent. But we also need to be very careful about how it's withdrawn from the economy as well. If there's one thing that's been a little bit worrying about the language from the Prime Minister and the Treasurer it's this assumption that all of a sudden in six months' time they can turn the tap off. That may be possible, it might not be, but we should have the flexibility to do the right thing by people in the economy at that time.
DANIEL: Well, that appears to be a best-case scenario situation, doesn't it?
CHALMERS: It's genuinely hard to tell. There've been welcomed developments on the health front, but we shouldn't get carried away or be complacent about that when you see on our news every night what's happening around the world. It's horrific. That's on the health front. On the economic front there is a lot of genuine concern that the economy won't just "snap back", to use the Prime Minister's language. We don't want the Prime Minister's "snap back" to stop a recovery in its tracks. We want to make sure that we can rebuild this economy the right and responsible way. Part of that means recognising that all of this welcome support that's being provided at the moment may be enough, it may not be enough, but we'd need to have the capacity to continue to support the economy if it needs it.
DANIEL: Just a couple of nuts and bolts issues, it's been suggested that renters might actually be better off on the JobSeeker payment because it's not taxed and they can earn up to $104 a fortnight and they'd be eligible for rent assistance. Is that something that's workable?
CHALMERS: It's one of the things that's been raised with us as well Zoe. The fact that some of the payments has a real chance that it will push people into paying tax, it's calculated in tax. I think every affected worker or recipient around Australia will be making those sorts of calculations. I think when there are big changes like this which have big implications for people, they need to get some good advice. Typically, their local Federal MP can help out on that front, not with financial advice but with helping to understand the various payments and to make the right decisions on their own behalf.
DANIEL: Yes, so you need to think hard about which payment is best for you and your family, in essence. Now, on the bill for the response to COVID-19, right now it's sitting at around $320 billion, which is going to have to be repaid in some way. Would Labor support the introduction of a levy to repay that debt in the long run?
CHALMERS: Certainly it's a big bill that's been racked up. I think that is true. Our preference all along is to do the right thing by people and help them get through to the other side. It's more like $214 billion think in terms of direct Government support that will have to be recovered in the Budget at some point down the track. We may be headed towards almost a trillion dollars in gross debt. These are issues that will need to be grappled with. We're up for a conversation about how that debt is repaid in time. We want to make sure that it's not repaid by punishing the most vulnerable people, and we want to make sure that it's repaid in a responsible way over time so that we can continue to do the right thing to support the economy.
DANIEL: Just finally, overall, Jim Chalmers, are you feeling optimistic or pessimistic right now?
CHALMERS: I think there's been welcome news on the health front, but I am quite worried about what's happening in the economy. I'm quite worried about the number of people who've lost their jobs. I'm very worried about what's going on overseas and the impact that that will have on our economy. Our approach all along has been to say that the health challenge and the economy challenge are closely intertwined and that's true. There's been some welcome progress on the health front. We've put in place, in a bipartisan way, some good steps on the economic front but I think that it will be a painful period for a lot of Australians. Our responsibility in the Parliament, and in the Labor Opposition, is to continue to do whatever we can to get more support to more people more urgently.
DANIEL: We appreciate your time.
CHALMERS: Thank you, Zoe.
ENDS
