Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sunday Agenda, Sky News

KIERAN GILBERT:

Ahead of this week's Jobs and Skills Summit, Jim Chalmers, thanks for your time. The expectations are high - how important is it for you and the Government that you land a deal, some consensus, this week?

JIM CHALMERS:

Good morning Kieran. This is an important opportunity to bring people together around some of the big economic challenges that we all face together. Our expectations are realistic. We know that people have a range of views, and we're not looking for unanimity. We're just looking for those areas of broad common ground so that we can move forward together, whether it be on getting wages growing again after a decade of stagnation, whether it's boosting productivity by investing in our people and their skills, whether it's dealing with these skills and labour shortages. We've been really energised and really enthused by the genuine spirit of collaboration and cooperation that has emerged in the lead up to the Summit. We're realistic about what it might agree on, but we are confident that by tapping this spirit that exists in the community that we can move forward together. What changed in Australia in May, wasn't just the government, it was also a governing mindset. And the shift in mindset is how we try and find common ground before we search for this kind of needless conflict and complacency, which has held us back for too long, made our economy weaker and our people poorer. So I welcome all of the contributions that have been made already, something like 100 different workshops and many summits around Australia. All corners of Australia and all parts of our economy coming together to see what we can achieve if we genuinely seek that common ground.

GILBERT:

Treasurer, this joint statement today by the ACTU and peak business groups must give you some encouragement.

CHALMERS:

It's very heartening Kieran and this statement released today is an important indication of people's willingness to see where there are common interests, see where we can move forward together: whether it's in skills and training and investing in people so that they can adapt and adopt technology; whether it's filling these skills in labour shortages; whether it's sensible migration settings, which aren't a substitute for training; whether it's making sure that communities like this one in Logan City can reap the benefits of a national unemployment rate, which is hovering around three and a half per cent. All of these considerations are so important. And really I have detected over the last three months or so, but particularly in recent weeks, a real hunger for some real talk about our economic challenges and a real appetite to work together to address them. We are realistic about that, we're not naive about it, we don't think that everybody's going to have exactly the same view, and we won't be able to progress every idea that's pitched up. But by bringing people together, we give ourselves every chance to rise to this occasion, and to meet this moment.

GILBERT:

The prospect of multi-employer bargaining or industry-wide bargaining looks like it's a chance of getting up, how do you placate the business community and reassure them that this is not a return to pattern bargaining?

CHALMERS:

I think any idea that is about getting wages growing again after almost a decade of deliberate wage suppression and wage stagnation belongs at the Summit. So, we welcome this idea that has been put forward by the union movement. It's been something that's been discussed with the business community and employer groups for a little while now. And obviously, not everybody has an identical view, but I think there is something in trying to work out how do we fix a broken enterprise bargaining system, which hasn't worked to deliver those responsible, sustainable wage increases that have been missing in the economy for too long. And so the employer groups are engaging on this, as are others. We welcome that. This will be obviously something teased out at the Summit. We don't kid ourselves that everybody's got an identical view about it. But if there's a view about fixing enterprise bargaining, then it should be heard and it should be teased out on the floor at the Summit for sure.

GILBERT:

But there are strong concerns, the Industry Group chief Innes Willox says it's a throwback to the 1960s and a jobs killer. Are those concerns warranted?

CHALMERS:

First of all, we want Innes and the other employer groups to voice their opinion, and that's a welcome thing. It would be very bizarre if we held a Jobs Summit and said that there are only certain things you're allowed to say in the lead up to it. We're aware of his views and some of the other views that have been expressed. But equally, I think there's broad agreement really across all of the various stakeholders that enterprise bargaining isn't working. I think enterprise bargaining is broken, but there are ways to fix it so we get that sustainable wages growth, and we should be looking at it. And obviously, in this particular part of the Summit, which is led by my colleague, Tony Burke, his task will be to see where there is some common ground perhaps in some industries, around multi-employer bargaining, and to see if we can move forward together on this front.

GILBERT:

There have been some suggestions that business has been outmaneuvered by the union movement in the lead up to the Summit, and also criticism from the Opposition that the unions have driven the agenda. Andrew Clennell this morning is reporting that Dominic Perrottet has similar concerns, that it's been hijacked by union issues. How do you reassure business that you will be listening to their concerns, and it's not all being driven by unions?

CHALMERS:

I think I've demonstrated not just in the three months that we've been in office, Kieran, but for a long time before that. I spend a lot of time listening to the views of the business community, and particularly the employer groups. I've had conversations with the BCA, with ACCI, with the AI Group, and with COSBOA and others, about this Jobs Summit. The employer groups have a seat at the table, in this Government, as does the union movement and the labour movement more broadly. We want to work together with people, that's our assurance. I don't accept the criticism that you just described Kieran for a whole range of reasons, mostly because I think the problem here with that analysis, and particularly the criticism from the Opposition, is that it really kind of misses the moment here. People are genuinely trying to work together on these big economic challenges. We shouldn't see it as some kind of big clash of political armies or anything like that. Unfortunately, the Opposition is always looking for excuses not to work together, and that's what's delivered us a decade of wage stagnation and needless conflict and needless division. And all of the missed opportunities and messed up priorities that we've seen for too long in this country now. So we want to bring that to an end, and you do that by genuinely listening, genuinely working with people, and that's what we've been doing. And that's what we'll continue to do, not just around the Jobs Summit, but in the course of this Albanese Labor Government.

GILBERT:

So just to pick up on this specifically, apparently what Dominic Perrottet is worried about is that the moves on wages can drive up inflation, whereas the key here is about driving productivity improvements and filling workplace shortages. Are they high on your agenda? And if so, how do you fix something like subdued productivity?

CHALMERS:

It's a big mistake to see these objectives as somehow in conflict. We want a better trained, more productive workforce with decent wages and job security. Those things are actually complementary, not at odds, and that's what we're working towards. Our objective here is to make sure that every Australian who wants a decent, secure, well-paid job can find one. And every business that wants an enthusiastic, well-trained, productive worker can find one of those as well. Those interests are all intertwined, and it's a big mistake, to see them somehow as in conflict.

GILBERT:

The BCA, the Business Council, wants an increase in permanent migration to 220,000, but at least a temporary increase in the cap. Are you open to an increase like that? I mean, a lot of analysis - I know that you would have been reading as well - that if we don't catch up on the skills, worker shortages, we could have these workplace gaps for years to come.

CHALMERS:

We've got big challenges when it comes to skills and labour shortages right around Australia, Kieran, but particularly in pockets of our economy, and we need to address them. We can't fall into the trap of seeing migration as a substitute for training, we need to move on both fronts in sensible ways. In doing something sensible about our migration settings in that area, which has been run by Clare O'Neil and Andrew Giles at the Summit. We can do something sensible there, we can have more appropriate settings for our economy, and at the same time as we train more of our people for more of these opportunities, as well as make it easier for people to participate in the labour market, through important policy areas like childcare.

GILBERT:

You've mentioned the multi-trillion dollar superannuation industry is an option to help contribute to residential housing investment, and the energy transition. I spoke to a senior figure from an industry super organisation this week, who said to me, our top three priorities are: investor returns, investor returns, and investor returns. How do you get them onto your page and try to be nation building as well?

CHALMERS:

We're all on the same page on this, Kieran, and obviously the first and most important responsibility of the super funds is to deliver decent returns for their members. I was making, I think, an uncontroversial point: that we need to find a way to align that interest, that primary interest of super, with some of our big national economic priorities. And it shouldn't be beyond us as the architects of this multi-trillion dollar opportunity in super to find ways to align the interests of members, the interests of funds and the interests of the broader economy when it comes to some of these big challenges, like the housing shortage and the energy transition. And I've been really heartened in the conversations I've been having around the country. There is an appetite amongst the funds and I think in the broader Australian community to work out how do we invest the funds in a way that ticks some of these other boxes and delivers those decent returns for members. I think there is a role for Government leadership here, to make sure that those returns are there or to help ensure that those returns are there, and that's how I see the task ahead of us.

GILBERT:

The ACTU has made much of the gap between profits and wages. Do you accept those? If you take out the soaring mining profits, they're actually much more closely aligned over the past decade.

CHALMERS:

Business profits have been strong in this country. We want our businesses to be profitable and we want them to employ more people. But we also want to make sure that if our national economy succeeds that it delivers a benefit for ordinary working people. One of our big tasks here with economic policy, if you take a step back, is to try and reattach our national economic success with people's ability to work more and earn more if they want to, and put food on the table for the people that they love, and create those opportunities for more people in more parts of Australia. And so in order to do that, we need to make sure that we grow together, we grow the economy together, we want our businesses profitable, but we want that decent, sustainable wages growth as well. And that's a really key objective of our economic plan, and also of the Summit and beyond.

GILBERT:

You've copped a bit of flak for having none of the bank executives there, despite them being some of the biggest employers in the country. Yet there are a few of the industry super fund leaders there. Was that an oversight in hindsight?

CHALMERS:

No, I don't see it that way. The bank CEOs will be represented very capably by Anna Bligh, who's the head of the Banking Association. And in a number of instances, we've got peak groups there representing a broader constituency and I think that's as you'd expect. I speak to the bank CEOs all the time in my job. I spoke to one about the Summit during the course of the week, and I've had meetings with all of them in the last month or so. And they're obviously providing key input into our economic policies, that's not a surprise to anyone. But also, I think more broadly, it's not possible to fit everyone that you would like to fit in a Jobs Summit, which is I think, currently about 140 people once you include the state premiers and the state and local governments, plus parliamentarians on top of that. So, I think the bank CEOs broadly understand they get lots of opportunities for input, and they'll be well represented by Anna Bligh. And also, we've had all these other conversations before the Summit, we'll have more after the Summit as well, and they won't be ignored.

GILBERT:

Treasurer, almost out of time. I know I've got to let you go, but you've copped - the Government - a bit of free advice from the Opposition about these inquiries, particularly the one into Scott Morrison, saying that should get back to your day job, the bread and butter issues. Is the Government aware of not looking like you're in the rear-view mirror too much here?

CHALMERS:

This Government is 100 days old tomorrow, and we've been working around the clock on our economic challenges, trying to bring people together around wages and skills and productivity, and all the issues which matter most to the Australian people. This issue around Scott Morrison goes to the Liberal Party's inability to deliver the kind of stable government, which is a prerequisite for acting on our economic challenges. And I think their response to what has been revealed about Scott Morrison shows that Peter Dutton would be as bad, if not worse than Scott Morrison when it comes to lots of these issues. He hasn't condemned him strongly enough. Our focus is on the issues that matter to the Australian people, stable government and acting on these economic challenges. That's been our focus for the first 99 days, that will be the focus every day.

GILBERT:

Treasurer, appreciate your time ahead of a big week.

CHALMERS:

Thanks so much, Kieran.