Interview with Rebecca Levingston, ABC Radio, Brisbane

 

REBECCA LEVINGSTON:

One hundred and one days as Treasurer. Jim Chalmers took over managing Australia's money when Labor won the Federal Election in May. Treasurer, good morning.

JIM CHALMERS:

Good morning, Rebecca.

LEVINGSTON:

A hundred and one days in the job. What's been the best day so far?

CHALMERS:

The best day so far? It's a tough one right off the top, isn't it?

LEVINGSTON:

You thought I was going to ask you something about a Jobs and Skills Summit, didn't you? Alright, I'll circle back to it. I'll come back to that question at the end.

Let's go to the issue that I reckon is dominating news stories around the country. Treasurer, how tempted are you to scrap stage three tax cuts?

CHALMERS:

We went to the election with a position and we haven't changed that position.

LEVINGSTON:

I know but are you tempted? Because at the moment, the world has changed. You've even got Liberal backbenchers saying they don't make sense anymore. New analysis today suggests that these tax cuts will benefit the richest one per cent of Australians, they'll get as much as the poorest 65 per cent of Australians combined. Are you tempted to scrap them?

CHALMERS:

Let me use my words and explain to your listeners where we're at. We took a commitment to the election, we haven't changed that commitment. And the important thing I think for everybody to understand is that these tax cuts don't come in for another couple of years. And the Government's focus is on some of our nearer‑term challenges. So things in the jobs market, in particular, whether it's stagnant wages, whether it's labour and skills shortages, job security, these sorts of issues in our economy ‑ inflation, cost‑of‑living ‑ they're our focus right now. But we've seen no reason to change the commitment we took to the election.

LEVINGSTON:

Okay. But is there any discussion going on? Would there be any element that would change that position?

CHALMERS:

I think we recognise that we've got a Budget which is heaving with debt. We've got some challenges right now, some of those that I just rattled off ‑ inflation's the big one, real wages falling. Every one of your listeners understands that I would have thought. And so what we've got to do is, we've got to focus on what we can influence right now. And that's why the Jobs and Skills Summit is so important. Some of these other issues around tax ‑ we've said that our priority right now is on multinational taxes, which is another really important area of Budget repair, improving the Budget and that's our focus.

LEVINGSTON:

So on that, Treasurer, multinational tax repair, I reckon we could go back through the last 10 Treasurers who've been in your seat who wanted to repair that. When do you think there will be a significant shift and multinational organisations will pay their fair share of tax in Australia?

CHALMERS:

There are two parts to it. And on the international front, there's been some really good developments. The OECD has got a whole program that hundreds of countries are looking to sign up to. And the Americans just the other day actually passed through their Congress a plan to make companies pay a minimum rate of tax which was a pretty big step for the Americans in particular. So there have been some welcome developments on the international front.

And here at home, we've got a couple of policies as well, relatively modest policies which are about making multinational tax more transparent, cracking down on people using tax havens to avoid taxes and also trying to deal with the fact that a lot of companies are moving their debt around and their profits around the world to try and avoid paying tax here in Australia.

So both of those sets of developments here at home and around the world do give me some confidence that we can make a meaningful difference so that multinationals are paying a fairer share of tax where they make their money so that we can invest that in the health system and roads and education and all the things we care about.

LEVINGSTON:

Yeah when though? Would you put a timeframe on it? This term?

CHALMERS:

I think so. Certainly the OECD developments are over the next couple of years. And what the Americans did in the last couple of weeks is important to that. And our own policies, which we took to the election, we'll be looking to budget in October and May this year and next year. We want to get cracking as soon as we can. We've got a discussion paper out there at the moment on our own policies. We're getting a lot of input from around the community, around the country, so that we can make sure that we implement it the right way. But we've already started moving to implement them.

LEVINGSTON:

Meanwhile, Treasurer, when it comes to taxes that people will pay, my listeners come September 28, should they expect the fuel excise to come back and prepare to pay another 22 cents a litre for petrol?

CHALMERS:

I want to be up‑front with your listeners, Bec. They should expect that. The cost of extending that fuel relief is something like $3 billion every 6 months. We did inherit a trillion dollars of debt and we've got to be up‑front with people and responsible with their money. And so we said before the election, during the election and after the election that it would be too expensive to extend that relief. We know that that's not going to be popular. But people didn't elect us to do the easy things, they elected us to do the right things. And we just can't afford to extend that relief.

LEVINGSTON:

You're listening to the Treasurer Jim Chalmers on ABC Radio Brisbane. My name is Rebecca Levingston. This week, Treasurer, you will host the Jobs and Skills Summit. What's one thing you want out of it?

CHALMERS:

I think we need to train more people for more opportunities. We've got this situation right now where we've got national unemployment at 3.4 per cent which is pretty remarkable. So that means that there are opportunities out there, but we need to get much better at matching people up with those opportunities including in areas like the one I represent in Logan City because we've got really strong national employment, that brings labour and skills shortages. And we've got this mismatch between people who are excluded from the labour market who we want to be grabbing some of these opportunities. So from my point of view, if we could train more people for these opportunities, so that more and more people benefit from our national economic success, then that'd be a win.

LEVINGSTON:

Three point four per cent unemployment rate ‑ is that too low? Like what is the rate that you're aiming for?

CHALMERS:

There's a big conversation going on as you'd expect amongst all of the experts and economists about this. People used to think that full employment was around 5 per cent, then they said about four and a half. And now obviously, what we're seeing now is well short of that.

We would like to maintain unemployment with a three or a four in front of it, that would be our aspiration. But that unemployment rate doesn't tell the full story of what's happening in the labour market. Youth unemployment is higher than that, we've still got underemployment in areas, we've got problems around ‑ wages growth has been a really big challenge in the economy for the best part of a decade now.

So what we're trying to do is to say let's maintain national unemployment as low as we can, consistent with our other objectives, but let's not rest on our laurels on that front. Let's make sure that if national unemployment is low, it's actually generating opportunities that people can actually grab, not just in some parts of Australia, but in all parts of Australia

LEVINGSTON:

You mentioned wages growth there, and you know, lots of people will be looking at this Summit going 'what's in it for me?' How much time will be dedicated to trying to get people a pay rise?

CHALMERS:

It's a huge focus of ours. I think that's probably been the defining problem with the economy for the best part of the last decade. And that's because, not to get too partisan about it but our predecessors had a deliberate policy of wage suppression and wage stagnation and they were successful in keeping wages down. We've got a different approach. We think there is room for responsible, sustainable but strong wages growth and the best way to get that is to skill people up, is to make sure that our economy is growing and that people can grab these opportunities, that they can work more and earn more through the childcare system if they want to.

All of these sorts of things are all geared in one way or another to try to get wages growing again. If you could pick one thing that you'd fix in our economy in the last 10 years, it would be that stagnant wages growth. And this sense that no matter how hard people work, they feel like they just can't get ahead because their real wages are going backwards. And so a lot of the Jobs and Skills Summit will be all about that. One of the really heartening things has been that the business community has been engaged with us and with the union movement around how we get that wages growth which is sustainable and based on being more productive and skilling people up and investing in people. And if we can get wages moving again, then that would be a terrific thing.

LEVINGSTON:

Should pensioners be able to work more without having their pension cut, Treasurer?

CHALMERS:

We've had a good look at this over a period of time now. I started thinking about this before the election as well, and we've got to weigh up a couple of factors here. Ideally people would, if they wanted to, they'd work an extra day or two. They can currently earn up to 490 bucks a fortnight before their pension is affected. And we've done a lot of analysis of how many people are just working up to that threshold, which would give us a sense of whether or not they want to work more or not, whether that threshold matters to them. There's not a heap of evidence about that, but we're still looking at it. And we've also got to weigh up the costs of doing something like this, which is essentially making the pension available for people who are working more and more. And so that comes at a cost too. So it's a long way of saying we have had a good look at it. We've had some good conversations with National Seniors and other groups. I think you probably have one of the former leaders Everald Compton on your show from time to time, who is a great guy. We talked to all these people about it. If we could find a way though, we will, but we do have to balance it against all those other considerations and they're not insignificant.

LEVINGSTON:

Just bouncing back to your own electorate in Logan. Last week you held, what was it like a precursor to the Jobs and Skills Summit? Did you do a Logan version? What was the best idea out of that?

CHALMERS:

The best thing I took from that was that it really matters the how the national government engages with job service providers and community groups and migrant groups in communities like mine, but equally important are those kinds of horizontal relationships between them.

We've got to work out a way to strike the best balance between having good national programs, but also allowing enough leeway for genuine local leadership and innovation at the community level. We had a good yarn about that. But the really important thing about that summit I held in Logan, is that there's been I think more than 100 of these in the last few weeks conducted around Australia. And that's why the Jobs and Skills Summit this week is an important two days. But it's actually the conversations leading into it that have made it worth the effort. And particularly when you consider the way that communities are so different, like you think about Compton Road, which is the northern end of my electorate, that runs through the southern suburbs and Logan. On one side of Compton Road, the unemployment rate is below four  per cent, on the Brisbane side. On the Logan side, it's over 6 per cent. And that just gives you a sense, that's just two sides of the one road, Compton Road. And so that just gives you a sense of the kind of community differences that we need to be able to incorporate and deal with. And that's why these local mini summits and workshops have been so important.

LEVINGSTON:

You’ve still got 500, close to 500,000 job vacancies in Australia right now Treasurer, how many of them will be filled by people who come from other countries?

CHALMERS:

Some will be, we've got a big backlog actually, of visas that haven't been processed. And so obviously, my terrific colleagues, Clare O'Neil and Andrew Giles are working out how we get through that backlog, and that will have an impact. But also, we need to agree, ideally at the Summit or around the Summit, more sensible levels of migration. But we also need to make sure that if migration increases, that we're not using that as a substitute for training people for opportunities here. And we've also got to make sure that we get housing right, for example, so that people have somewhere to live. And so, migration is important, and I think there will be some progress made on migration this week, to have some more sensible settings and responsible settings, but at the same time we can't ignore all of the other challenges and opportunities that are associated with it too.

LEVINGSTON:

You're listening to Jim Chalmers, the Treasurer of Australia on ABC Radio Brisbane. My name is Rebecca Levingston. Just a little further up the road from you in Logan Treasurer, is the Gabba. A billion dollars has been allocated to demolish and rebuild it, half a billion of it was committed by the Morrison Government. You're in charge of the books now. Have you seen a business case for that?

CHALMERS:

I'm sure my colleagues have, Anika Wells the Sports Minister, and Catherine King, the Infrastructure Minister will be engaging in one way or another with the State Government over that, I haven't yet. No doubt that will come across my desk at some point.

LEVINGSTON:

Because New South Wales is prioritising flood recovery over stadiums, should Queensland consider that? And I ask that Jim Chalmers, in the context of… yesterday, I was out in Rocklea, Oxley, talking to people in gutted homes, in gut‑wrenching situations, families in limbo, little kids who don't have doors on their rooms because of the floods. From that Resilient Homes fund not one cent has flowed yet and yet here we are, the Olympic City, we've got people living in tents in their own homes, Treasurer.

CHALMERS:

Obviously we need to do what we can to support people who've been impacted by these floods and by other natural disasters. I think there is a shared commitment, federal and state governments of both political persuasions New South Wales, Queensland, certainly the Federal Government, to try and do the right thing by people. And we are spending a heap of money on supporting people in those areas that have been affected. I'm reluctant to kind of take shots at state governments about the different decisions they make, but we do need to host those Olympics, and we want to do a good job of it, and so we need to find a way to fund all of these priorities. And different states will go about it in different ways, and they'll find a willing partner in the Commonwealth.

LEVINGSTON:

Is it necessarily taking shots? What about, it's about championing or prioritising safe and stable homes for people?

CHALMERS:

We're almost constantly in conversations and discussions with our state counterparts about disaster recovery and relief, and Murray Watt our minister is Queensland‑based and he knows really well, as does Milton Dick, who is a member out the way that you were yesterday, Graham Perrett and others. They all understand that we need to come to the table here for people who are doing it especially tough. And one of the ways that we can do that from a Commonwealth point‑of‑view, is not just be there for people after a disaster, as important as that is, but to try and be there for them before a disaster as well, and try and invest in mitigation. Because in a lot of these areas, and unfortunately, as I think you rightly identify, a lot of these areas, are areas who've got their fair share of challenges, even absent floods, including areas like mine. We need to be there for them beforehand, to make sure that we're investing in mitigation in some of these areas, which are built in vulnerable places in parts of Queensland.

LEVINGSTON:

It is a hugely challenging job that you've taken on, to be Treasurer, but you wanted it and 101 days in, here you are, dealing with the world of big money. I mean, it's bonkers. I was thinking about this in the lead‑up to talking to you this morning. Yesterday someone paid $18 million for a baseball card. Does your mind boggle at how stupid money is in 2022?

CHALMERS:

There are some big titles being bandied about. I think I'm really fortunate in that I've worked in this portfolio before, under great Queensland Commonwealth Treasurer Wayne Swan. And so, there's not a lot that surprises me in the portfolio, around the big sums that are kind of bandied about, and so I'm kind of up for it. You asked me before what my favourite day was and I still don't know. But I tell you what, that question you just asked me then kind of reminded me, I was at a local cafe on Saturday morning with my daughter and my kids and my wife. And a couple of people came up to me and said ‘we know that it's a difficult job, but we know that you're doing your best’ and that's about as good as it gets, I think for a Treasurer. This job is not a job that gets a lot of plaudits. But if somebody occasionally says ‘we recognise it's hard and we know that you’re doing your best’ then that's pretty good.

LEVINGSTON:

Do your best Treasurer, thanks for your time this morning.

CHALMERS:

Thanks very much Bec, all the best.

LEVINGSTON:

Jim Chalmers, the Treasurer of Australia on ABC Radio Brisbane.