Interview with Sarah Ferguson, 7.30, ABC

SARAH FERGUSON:

Treasurer, welcome to 730.

JIM CHALMERS:

Thanks Sarah.

FERGUSON:

If the Employment White Paper really is a roadmap for a much more dynamic labour market, what are the first steps?

CHALMERS:

We've said today in making nine initial policy announcements with a big focus really on training, on lifelong learning, reskilling and retraining, but also smoothing it out and making it easier for people to work a bit more if they'd like to, whether that's older workers or people who might be worried about getting back into the labour market if it means losing some of their concessions or entitlements. And so what we've done today in releasing this White Paper on employment, a white paper on jobs and opportunities, is to say this is really all about making it easier for workers to find opportunities and making it easier for employers to find workers so that we can prosper together.

FERGUSON:

The big question is whether this is going to move quickly enough for those areas of the economy that are changing so fast – the digital transition, the green transition, and the care economy as well of course. Is there enough here to make it go quickly enough?

CHALMERS:

Yes, there is but it's important to remember that this isn't the beginning of our employment policies and it's not the end either. In the pages of this Employment White Paper, there's something like 70 policies that we've implemented to go to some of these issues you've identified. And it also aligns really neatly with the work that other ministers are doing on migration, on the skills agreement, the Universities Accord, the gender equality strategy – there's a whole bunch of work going on right across the Albanese Cabinet to make sure that we position our people to be beneficiaries of change, not victims of change. And one of the most important ways that we are doing that is to recognise that we need workers in the net zero transformation, in the care and support economy, in the tech sector. And that's why so much of what we're proposing here, particularly when it comes to lifelong learning, is about training the workers for those good, secure, fairly paid jobs, which will be such a feature of those three areas that we've identified.

FERGUSON:

Now there is a plan here to fast-track new TAFE Centres of Excellence and to develop new higher-level apprenticeships. How will these change the pathways for people acquiring much higher-level technical skills?

CHALMERS:

Sarah, whether it's those two policies that you've identified or the digital skills passport, what they are really all about is recognising that in years gone by, somebody might finish school and get an extra qualification from TAFE or uni or in some other way and that would sustain people through 40 or 50 years of their working life. And that's changing as the economy changes and the pace of change picks up. We need to instil in Australians a culture of lifelong learning and retraining and reskilling. And in order to do that, we've got to get the systems more effectively joined up, and I pay tribute to Jason Clare and Brendan O'Connor, this is a real passion of theirs and a real passion of the Government. Different parts of the system need to be able to interact with each other much more easily so that people can catch up with the skills that they need and keep up as our economy changes and that really is one of the central concerns of this Employment White Paper.

FERGUSON:

There's a big focus here on disadvantage and the paper makes the point that the Labor Government in 2008 set targets for poorer students getting university degrees. Those targets weren't met, the same was true for vocational training targets. How do we know it's going to be different this time?

CHALMERS:

In the specific, if you look at a lot of the announcements that Jason Clare has made, including the initial announcements out of the Universities Accord, that is about getting students from disadvantaged areas and from disadvantaged cohorts into the higher education system, and that is such an important thing that we are doing. But more broadly, there's five objectives in this Employment White Paper and one of them is about overcoming barriers, and that is to recognise that even in a country where unemployment in aggregate has been incredibly low, and it's currently 3.7 per cent – extremely low by historical standards, but there are still pockets of disadvantage and long-term unemployment and where that concerns us most is where that disadvantage and unemployment cascades through the generations including, frankly, in communities like the one that I represent, and so this is personal for a lot of us. We need to get much better. It shouldn't be beyond us as a country, Sarah, when we've got unemployment as low as it has been to recognise that not everybody has been able to grasp those opportunities of a labour market, which has been historically strong. And so we need to do more work there and we are. And that's why it really is one of the central concerns of this Employment White Paper.

FERGUSON:

How important is it for the Government to come up with its own definition and its own goals of what full employment is, especially when the new head of the Reserve Bank has said that unemployment is too low and needs to rise to fight inflation?

CHALMERS:

First of all, I think Governor Bullock was saying that her expectation, the Reserve Bank's expectation, and indeed the Treasury's expectation is that unemployment unfortunately will tick up a bit as our economy slows and weakens because of China and the impact of interest rate rises –

FERGUSON:

It wasn't just a forecast. She was saying that a slightly higher rate of unemployment was a sustainable balance point. Do you agree with her that that is a sustainable balance point?

CHALMERS:

I agree with her expectation that unemployment will tick up and inflation is moderating. But I think the core of your question, Sarah, is about how low can we have unemployment without putting upward pressure on prices. And that is a really important consideration but it's a necessarily quite a narrow and technical assumption that the Reserve Bank uses and the Treasury uses. And what I've tried to do in this Employment White Paper is to say that is necessary, that's important, but distinct from that and complementary to that is the Government's objective and the Government's objective is a good, secure, fairly paid job for everyone who wants one without having to look for too long. That's why we need our economy to be more productive and dynamic and innovative and competitive. It's why we're putting so much time and effort and resources into investing in an economy where the skills base is better. We're transforming our energy system. We're adapting, adopting technology, all of these sorts of things, will lift the speed limit on our economy, employ more people, create more opportunities, without pushing inflation up.

FERGUSON:

Now, in publishing the secret messages of Mike Pezzullo, the head of the Home Affairs Department, Nine Media appears to have pulled back the curtain to reveal the extent of his political manoeuvring during the years of the Coalition Government, I should say. Are we seeing for the first time, how deeply emmeshed in politics some senior public servants are?

CHALMERS:

I think it's really important that Mike Pezzullo has stood aside, and especially important that Minister O'Neil and the Prime Minister have referred this really serious matter to the Public Service Commissioner, who has appointed someone to review what's happened here. And before we get that advice, that advice will be provided to Minister O'Neil. And before we get that, I think it would be inappropriate for me to get into the details of it. But obviously, it's been sufficiently concerning that Secretary Pezzullo has stood aside, and that Minister O'Neil and the Prime Minister have referred this to the Public Service Commissioner. I think that's a really important step that has been taken. They will get to the bottom of it and I'm reluctant to really add much to that until we see what they advise.

FERGUSON:

But really concerning as you say. Jim Chalmers, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

CHALMERS:

Much appreciated, Sarah.