JIM CHALMERS MP
SHADOW TREASURER
MEMBER FOR RANKIN

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RN BREAKFAST
THURSDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 2021

SUBJECTS: RBA Governor’s National Press Club speech; Unemployment, underemployment and wages the defining challenges in the recovery; Government’s Industrial Relations laws making stagnant wages and job insecurity worse, not better; JobKeeper cuts; Labor leadership.

FRAN KELLY, HOST: Shadow Treasurer Jim Chalmers joins us in our Parliament House studios. Jim Chalmers, welcome back to Breakfast.

JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER: Thank you, Fran.

KELLY: Philip Lowe says, while we still have a long way to go, the economic bounce back has been earlier and stronger than the bank was expecting. Putting aside poor wages growth, are we in better shape than anyone could have possibly hoped for? Given we've just come through the worst recession in almost a century,

CHALMERS: Well Fran the recovery is underway, we want the economy to recover strongly and we do welcome when there are positive signs in the economy. It's a credit to the Australian people who've done so much to limit the spread of the virus here and that's a lot of the reason why the economy is not quite as bad as many had feared. But we need to acknowledge as the Reserve Bank governor did yesterday, that many people are still struggling. Two million Australians can't find a job or enough hours to support their loved ones. As you identify, wages are still stagnant. If you look at what the Reserve Bank governor said yesterday, he pointed to what are the defining challenges in this recovery when he said wages will be low for some time, unemployment is the highest in decades, people can't find the hours they need. There will be job shedding when JobKeeper ends, and the path ahead will be bumpy and uneven. All of those conclusions are conclusions that we share.

KELLY: He also said though, that it was a stronger than expected bounce back and when he was saying that the bank’s going to keep the official cash rate at rock bottom 0.1 per cent until unemployment is low enough to drive stronger wages growth, but that won't be before 2024 for the earliest. He says it will work eventually he's calling for patience. How long do you see this taking? And is it fair enough that we should be patient?

CHALMERS: Certainly we've acknowledged that some of the indicators in the economy are better than what the Reserve Bank had feared. But what we're saying about patience, what we're saying about the road ahead, is when those defining challenges are around wages, unemployment and underemployment, insecure work, it makes no sense to accept that those are the challenges on the road ahead, for the government and their industrial relations changes to me making those problems worse, rather than better - cutting pay, making work less secure. I think those are the issues that really matter going forward. It is a credit to the Australian people who've done so much to limit the spread of the virus that our economy is recovering, part of that is inevitable when states have reopened, when we're coming off the baseline of the deepest recession in almost 100 years, but it is a credit to people who've largely done the right thing. What matters now is how people actually fare in the recovery, not what it looks like on paper. What it means for people's living standards, their ability to provide for their loved ones. That's what really matters.

KELLY: Okay, let's talk about IR. Labor has been critical about the Government's lack of ambition on reform and yet it is attempting some reform on IR with the industrial relations omnibus bill which Labor now says it will oppose in its entirety. Why are you standing in the way of these changes, most of which were agreed to in roundtable discussions between the employees and the ACTU?

CHALMERS: Because the main effects of these industrial relations changes Fran will make it easier to cut people's pay, will make work less secure, and will make a difficult situation in the economy even worse.

KELLY: Not all of them. Some of these changes were agreed to in fact, put forward by the ACTU.

CHALMERS: We said in advance of seeing the legislation that we'll have an open mind but our tests are does it make it harder for people to get the wages growth they need to support their loved ones? And what does it mean for job security? And on both of those fronts, these industrial relations changes will be diabolical.

KELLY: The government had signalled it would be prepared probably to take out one of the most contentious changes, the changes to the better off overall test or putting that in suspension for employers who were hit by the pandemic. Why didn't you go with that? Why has Labor dug its heels and said we're going to vote against it entirely just to give you a platform for the election?

CHALMERS: No Fran our highest priority is to make sure that people can fare well in the recovery from this recession. We've said our highest priority is good, secure, well paid jobs. These industrial relations changes will strike at the core of that when wages and living standards, unemployment and underemployment are already the defining challenges in the economy and in the recovery as the Reserve Bank governor said yesterday, we're on the side of people who want to work hard and get ahead and provide for their loved ones. The Government is making it harder for people to do that and we can’t support that.

KELLY: Let's go to JobKeeper. The Reserve Bank governor rejected Labor's calls for an extension of the JobKeeper scheme he says there will be some job shedding. But far from falling off a fiscal cliff he says it'll only be a blip for the economy. It's a pretty strong vote of confidence to in the economic recovery that has the resilience to sustain the withdrawal of this emergency support, isn't it?

CHALMERS: Well, we're concerned about that job shedding Fran and if you go -

KELLY: He said it's a blip, give it a few months and things will bounce back.

CHALMERS: Not for places like Cairns, where I've spent some time recently. Cairns is on JobKeeper life support in many ways, and the government wants to pull the plug. That will be devastating for a lot of small businesses, workers, industries and towns which are still struggling. All we're asking for is for the government to acknowledge as the Reserve Bank governor did, that even though the recovery is underway, many people are still struggling. If we rush to pull support out of the economy, that will make a difficult situation even worse in places like Cairns, which have been impacted by the closure of the international border.

KELLY: Okay but JobKeeper is an across the board payment. The government says it will cut it at the end of March but it is looking at the target to support once that ends in some sectors and a sector like the tourism industry in Cairns is probably one of them. There's an option being reported today that the government is considering apparently it's a HECS style revenue contingent loans to struggling businesses, firms hit by the recession would continue to get help, but the money would have to be repaid once turnover recovers. Would you support that approach?

CHALMERS: We haven't seen it Fran, it's just speculation in the newspaper. We've been constructive about it. We've been forward leaning about support for small business in particular. But what's being looked at here is no substitute for JobKeeper, which is keeping a lot of places like Cairns and elsewhere alive during a really difficult time and the government shouldn't be in a rush to cut it.

KELLY: Sure. But on the other hand, Labor's saying JobKeeper needs to be more carefully audited, you'd send it to the Auditor General, fair enough it's a massive spending programme. Last week, you said Scott Morrison and Josh Frydenberg, quote, were sprung sending JobKeeper money to dead people. Since then the tax office has said it's not aware of any ultimately successful claim for deceased or other fictitious employees. Were you just after a cheap headline, how'd you get that so wrong?

CHALMERS: Well it was very clear from the freedom of information request reported by the ABC, that there was a lot of rorting in this programme and I stand by that. If the government thinks that there hasn't been any writing, then they're kidding themselves. What we've said all along, is if the government was spending less money on JobKeeper for things like executive bonuses, they'd have more money to support struggling workers and small businesses.

KELLY: But isn't that an argument for not keeping the payment across the board and for looking at more targeted support for the sectors that that you're calling for, like the tourism sector?

CHALMERS: It's an argument to do a better job implementing a good idea, which is wage subsidies for struggling workers. It shouldn't be beyond the government to make sure that money is going where it's needed. It's needed in parts of our economy, the government's in a rush to cut it back but they're not in a rush to clamp down on rorts which have been obvious for some time.

KELLY: On JobSeeker, the Reserve Bank Governor Philip Lowe repeated his support for an increase in the permanent JobSeeker rate. Once the coronavirus supplement is withdrawn next week. He says it's not a macroeconomic issue, it's a fairness issue. So he's framing it around the value of fairness. Has he just boxed the government in to an increase on in JobSeeker?

CHALMERS: I think the reasons for an increase, a permanent increase, in JobSeeker are self-evident. I think it's actually both a fairness issue - about making sure people can support themselves while they look for work - but it is also an economic issue. There are a lot of shops and small businesses, which have done well from the fact that people have had more spending power. So I think it takes many boxes at once the government has been delaying giving people a bit of certainty on what the payment looks like, after next month, they should do that as soon as possible.

KELLY: Will Labor help give some guidance on that. Where should that payment be lifted to? It'll be $40 a day if it reverts back, where should it go to?

CHALMERS: We've been very vocal as you know Fran, we said that it can't go back to $40 a day. I think it's only responsible that we see what the government proposes, we see what the budget position is, we would inherit and come to a view then.

KELLY: Jim Chalmers, there's plenty of speculation swirling around Anthony Albanese's leadership. And now we read this morning in the Australian that about a dozen MPs, the so called Otis group of right wing MPs met for dinner last night and apparently there were complaints made around the table about the direction the party has taken under Anthony Albanese. Are you aware of any suggestion that Anthony Albanese has been given until Good Friday to lift his performance?

CHALMERS: No, I'm not Fran.

KELLY: Will he lead the party to the next election?

CHALMERS: Yes, he will.

KELLY: Your name is often thrown up as a future leader. How badly do you want the job?

CHALMERS: I want to be the Treasurer in an Anthony Albanese led government. I want to work on making sure that there are jobs in the recovery. I want to make sure the economy is stronger after COVID than it was before. That's my focus and that's the focus of our team.

KELLY: And did you know the Otis group was meeting for dinner last night were you invited?

CHALMERS: I wasn't invited. I saw the story in the paper and I don't know if it's accurate or not.

KELLY: Jim Chalmers, thank you very much for joining us.

CHALMERS: Thank you Fran.

ENDS