E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
SKY NEWS AFTERNOON AGENDA
TUESDAY, 21 JULY 2020
 
SUBJECTS: JobKeeper; JobSeeker; Budget update; Unemployment; RBA Governor’s speech.
 
KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Joining me here in the studio now, the Shadow Treasurer Jim Chalmers. Mr Chalmers, thanks for your time. The RBA Governor welcomed to the JobKeeper extension, do you?
 
JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER: Yes we do. The RBA Governor has been saying for a long time, as has the Labor Party and others, that it would have been absolutely catastrophic to follow through on the Prime Minister's hard snapback at the end of September. We've been saying for a long time, as has Phil Lowe, that the unemployment rate's going to be higher for longer, so that means you need support in the economy for longer as well.
 
GILBERT: And do you think the design is right, the way that Josh Frydenberg and the Prime Minister have got it today?
 
CHALMERS: We will go through the detail of it. We've only had it for a couple of hours. We'll go through and make sure that it all works. I know that there's a lot of interest in the interaction between the various payments, which is something you were just discussing a moment ago. We'll go through the detail of it, but as you know, right throughout this first recession in three decades, we've been very responsible, and very constructive. Our position has been not to hold things up in the Senate if it means getting more support out the door more quickly, because people are hurting out there. Unemployment is high and it's expected to be higher for longer so we all need to do what we can to address that.
 
GILBERT: One of the discrepancies that's been raised, as you alluded to, is that JobKeeper payment for part-time workers of less than 20 hours, they get $750 a fortnight whereas the JobSeeker payment is $810. Is that a disincentive or is that something that you'd like to see fixed? Does that make sense?
 
CHALMERS: It's certainly something we want to hear more about. I know the Prime Minister was asked about it at the press conference earlier today, but we need to know more about what the thinking is there. There is a lot of focus and a lot of attention on the difference between those two rates. We want to make sure that they've got that bang-on. We'll go through the detail of that as we go through the detail of the rest of it.
 
GILBERT: With JobSeeker, do you want to see this subsidy made permanent, this Coronavirus subsidy? Because the payment was $550 a fortnight. It's been reduced to $250 as of October. Labor has been saying for a long time that that Newstart allowance or JobSeeker, whatever you want to call it, that that should be increased. Do you want to see that supplement made permanent?
 
CHALMERS: We've got the same view that we've had for some time, but not just us, John Howard has the same view as us, the BCA, ACOSS, and others have said that $40 a day is not enough to look for a job on, and not enough to support yourself on. It's bad for people but it's also bad for an economy which has a problem with demand, consumption, and keeping our shops open. I think the only responsible economic decision, and the right thing from a social justice point of view, is for that JobSeeker rate to settle at a permanent rate higher than $40 a day.
 
GILBERT: Would you have liked to have seen that JobSeeker payment, that supplement, continued into the new year just like JobKeeper has been to March?
 
CHALMERS: I think people did deserve a bit more clarity than they've got, people who are on JobSeeker. Hundreds of thousands of extra people are on unemployment benefits right now. They would have heard the announcement today that they've only got a few months' grace from what they were expecting. I think it is important that the Government and the Prime Minister in particular gives people more certainty than they've been able to provide so far.
 
GILBERT: Do you do you accept that much of what we're facing here is out of the Government's control, to an extent? We've seen the Oxford University vaccine move into stage two. I know UQ, the University of Queensland in your part of the world, Ian Fraser's great institution there, they're making big steps forward towards a vaccine. So much of what we're talking about rests on that, doesn't it?
 
CHALMERS: A couple of things about that. Firstly, in terms of the vaccine, more power to their arm. The whole world is hanging out for a medical solution to this problem. On the economic side, we've always acknowledged that this is a diabolical health crisis that has economic consequences. We've said that all along. But we think the Government needs to take responsibility for a couple of things. First of all, the economy was not going well before the virus hit and in the Budget, debt had more than doubled. We had issues with wages, productivity, business investment, the list goes on. The Government needs to take responsibility for that. Secondly, they need to take responsibility for the fact that there have been some substantial bungles with the way that they've rolled out this economic support. Even today, with the new iteration of JobKeeper, it doesn't fix many of the problems which were in the old version of JobKeeper including the exclusion of too many casuals and a like. The whole country needs the Government to do a better job of rolling out this new wave of support than they did rolling out the first wave of support. 
 
GILBERT: But one of the criticisms that Labor had of JobKeeper is that it was overpaying some individuals and some firms were receiving more than they did before the pandemic. Isn't it inevitable when you're facing a crisis like we have, that economists say, look just throw everything at it. I know Ken Henry, in years gone by, would tell Labor Governments, you've just got to put everything you've got out as quickly as you can, and if you overspend, you overspend. And that's what we're faced here?
 
CHALMERS: The issue we have with that is that the Government borrowed $6 billion to overpay people at the same time as they said to millions of Australians, you're not eligible for this scheme because you might have been working as a casual for 11 months for one employer, rather than 12 months. We're just pointing to the disconnect there. If they're going to borrow $6 billion, as they have, don't spray it around overpaying people; use that to include people, get maximum bang for buck, get value for money. In this space, and Ken Henry would say the same and any reputable economist would say, the thing that matters now is what you can do for jobs. The number one test for these changes today is what it means for jobs and the businesses that create them. It's about getting maximum bang for buck. It's about maximum effectiveness. The most important measure of effectiveness is employment. The Treasury came out today and said they expect unemployment to be higher in September, higher again in December, and the Reserve Bank made similar points. That's what should concern us most.
 
GILBERT: Would you want to see JobKeeper extended as we look out at the next six to 12 months? Do you want to see it beyond March into next year?
 
CHALMERS: First of all it's important that we welcome the admission that the Prime Minister's original instinct, that everything would snapback to normal by the end of September, was wrong. It's good to see them admit that today with these new policies. To be consistent with that we need to see the support in the economy be responsive to developments in the economy. The Reserve Bank and others including the Treasury today have said unemployment will be higher for longer. That means the economy will need some support for longer, and the Government needs to be responsive to that.
 
GILBERT: Okay, so that's most likely yes. Particularly the tourism sector in your part of the world, they're not facing international borders reopening anytime soon, so it's inevitable there'll have to be some support there?
 
CHALMERS: The tourism industry in Queensland's in all sorts, as you could imagine. And not just in Queensland, right around Australia, and in other industries too. The international borders are not going to be reopened anytime soon. The point that we've made all along, and it's good to see the Government respond to that in one way today, is that if you accept that the economic challenge is going to linger then the economic support needs to be needs to continue for a bit longer as well. That's what today is all about.
 
GILBERT: With this package, the JobKeeper package at $16 billion or there-abouts for the next phase, it was $70 billion in the first. It seems that the Government is keeping a few shots in the locker for longer-term support. Would you expect, as my colleague Andrew Clennell asked the Prime Minister, an early election next year, and that way the Government's providing support all the way up to that particular hypothetical poll?
 
CHALMERS: I'm happy to respond to that. But first of all, when it comes to the $70 billion, it was $130 billion, and then it was $70 billion. With the greatest of respect, who can really believe what the Treasurer says about how much these programs cost anymore? I do think his credibility on that is more-or-less shot. On the political point I don't accept for a moment that the Prime Minister operates without some kind of political lens. He is a political animal. He takes all of his decisions based on the politics of the day. He'll go to the election when he thinks he's the best chance to win it
 
GILBERT: And this Thursday, if you're looking at the numbers, what's your expectation? We're seeing suggestions that it's going to be upwards of $200 billion, the deficit for this financial year.
 
CHALMERS: It's going to be eye-watering, the deficits released on Thursday, and the amount of debt, remembering the debt was already at record highs before the Coronavirus, the Government hadn't delivered any surpluses up to that point. It's going to be eye-watering, what we see on Thursday. It's important that we get a proper, comprehensive update on Thursday, not another marketing exercise. It's very troubling to hear that the Government is talking about releasing half an update of two years rather than four. Australians deserve to know how deep the Government thinks this recession will be, how long unemployment will be higher than is ideal, and how much debt has been piled up throughout this period.
 
GILBERT: Do you accept we are still in a strong position when it comes to debt, vis-a-vis other advanced economies like those in the OECD? We fared quite well in comparison. 
 
CHALMERS: But in historical terms, we're talking about a stupendous amount of debt. The priority has got to be jobs as I've said today, as I've said probably the last few times we've spoken. The most important thing is jobs and so you do what's necessary to protect jobs and create jobs. That will rack up some debt and that will need to be repaid. We'll hear more about that on Thursday.
 
GILBERT: Shadow Treasurer Jim Chalmers appreciate it. Thanks. We'll talk to you soon.
 
ENDS